The Bangalore Literary Festival - Feb 4, 2018
RYAN: Hello everybody! I’m Ryan and we are going to talk about Jyoti’s
book today The Bhais of Bengaluru which covers the history of Bangalore’s Underworld. So, I
started reading this book yesterday. And I was thinking, OK, I’ll read for half
an hour, then I have to do this for the baby and what-not and then I will
return to reading it later but I ended up reading it witout a single break. ‘Bhais
of Bengalure’ is written like a thriller. You have every chapter ending on a
cliff-hanger. It was a gripping read. As a child, when we used to play hockey, and
there was a fight, there would often be someone who said, “I know Koli Fayyas”,
or “I know Jayraj. You better be careful.”
So, delving into this was fascinating for me. It brought back memories
of childhood and the fear these characters inspired.
Jyoti, you wrote this book under the
mentorship, if you will, or the guidance of Mr. Zaidi. Everyone knows Mr. Zaidi.
All of us have read his books. We see films inspired by his books and so on and
so forth. So, could you tell is a little bit about this journey of writing this
book.
JYOTI: Hi everyone! It was a fascinating journey. I’m glad that you liked
reading it. And as you mentioned, each chapter has been left with
something you could look forward to. The
mentorship worked out really well and that’s how Hussain thought the chapters
should work out so that you would want to read the next one.
That was done deliberately, obviously.
And the journey of writing this book was exciting. I’m essentially a journalist
from Bombay. So, it was extremely new for me to come and research in a new city on a topic like this. I have covered
crime in Mumbai, but I was in two minds whether people here would give me
information, whether they will be OK to share their details and things like
that. But gradually, it worked out really well.
RYAN: What is it about writing about crime, or these gangsters or these
dons that makes it so appealing to the reading public; what is about these
stories about the Dark Side that make us want to read them and why are you
personally involved in that?
HUSSAIN: I think this question has two parts. The first is that: why is it
appealing? To me it looks more like all our fascination is with Bollywood
stars, how you find them so distant – Amitabh, Shah Rukh, Aamir – oh wow, how
their lives are so interesting, so intriguing. But we can’t touch them. We
can’t get close to them. We can only see them and understand them from a
distance and that makes for some mystery about them. I’m sorry, this analogy
may not be liked by the Bollywood people, but the same goes for the Underworld
as well. We know Dawood Ibrahim, Chhota Rajan, Gawli, Jayraj, Oil Kumar, Muthappa
Rai from a distance. We can’t touch them. We can’t be part of their life. But
when we see them from a distance, as we say in Hindi – “Door ke dhol suhane” – “The Mountains look very beautiful from a
distance”. So that’s the fascinating part about Crime. That is one thing.... and why I write about Crime? That’s
sheer misfortune, actually. (Audience
laughs). I was looking for a job, in 1995, in Indian Express, Mumbai. And I had a very interesting editor – Mr. Syed
Suresh Sadhswami. And there was only one vacancy left in the newspaper. And I
was dying to join Indian Express. If anyone had asked me that I will cut your
left hand if you want to join the Express, I would have given my left arm to
him to let me get a job in the Express.
But he gave me a very difficult proposition. He said, “See, I have only a crime
reporter’s job here and because all the criminals in Mumbai are Muslim and you
are also a Muslim, so, you have to do crime reporting!” (Audience laughs). So this is one misfortune, I would say that,
because I wanted a job and wanted to go to Indian
Express, I said, “Yes!”, and therefore, it started.
RYAN: (Laughing). OK, thank
you. What about you, Jyoti? What was your personal reason to write this book?
What prompted you?
JYOTI: Crime is fascinating. But the book actually landed in my lap. Hussain
Sir was my editor in Mumbai Mirror. He had been working on
this topic for quite some time. Somehow other projects kept him busy and so he
discussed it with me. One day he just asked – “Do you want to work on something
interesting?” He mentioned the idea for the book and I was, like, “Let me go to
Bangalore and let me start working on the idea and let’s see what I come back
with.” So it all started in 2015, when Hussain sir came as my editor.
Rohit Shetty Launches 'The Bhais Of Bengaluru' With S Hussain Zaidi & Author Jyoti Shelar
ZACK: I’m here actually, as a little bit of a counter-balance. I’m
essentially a fiction writer, as some of you may know. I set my novels in the
Bangalore Underworld, in the Majestic area and these places. I’m also the kind
of person who reviews the kind of books that you write, in all the newspapers.
And I find it kind of fascinating, especially now reading Jyoti’s book, how she
puts a lot of details in place. Like, when you read a newspaper, you need some
short notice. When you all read the Bangalore newspapers, there will always be
some small thing that says, “Rowdy-sheeter so-and-so hacked rowdy-sheeter
so-and-so with his machete at the traffic red-light” or something like that.
But we don’t we don’t know the stories behind all those pieces. I think that
the brilliant thing that Jyoti has done with her book is that she sort of puts
it all into context. And we see the underlying mechanism of the Underworld and
all the things that go on when normal people like you and I, when we are asleep.
So, she’s watching that and putting it all there, so like, we see how these
things work. I mean, that’s a very admirable job that you have done, Jyoti.
JYOTI: I wanted to track down the history and how crime has evolved in the
city. The book goes into details like what lead to the crimes in the initial
days. And then how these men rose gradually. So there is a bit about the rowdy
sheets and the Pehlwans and Rajkumar fandom...
ZACK: Yes, there are some fantastic details that you have dug out. And
even that little fact about the “half murder”. Could explain to us what it is.
Like, recently, I heard about this idea that in Bangalore, we have something called
“half murder”. Not full murder, but “half murder”. And that is kind of
explained in your book.
JYOTI: A “half murder” is just a term used when you just attack a person
and injure him but don’t kill him, it’s a “half murder”. (Audience laughs)
ZACK: “Half murder”. And it’s a number in the penal code, also.
JYOTI: Yes, it’s Attempt to Murder,
or Assault.
RYAN: So, going back to this history, I was fascinated by it, truly. For
example, when you go back into the beginnings of Bangalore’s Underworld, you
have Devraj Urs, who is the former CM of Karnataka and member of the Arasu
Clan, Old Mysore power so to speak, who in many regards, with the help of his
son-in-law Nataraj brought up many of the early dons of Bangalore. So, very
frankly, there was Congress involvement in the creation of Bangalore’s gangster
culture. So my question to you is –what’s changed?
JYOTI: The political influence may not be that blatant, like in the time
of don M. P. Jayaraj. This don was at the helm of Indira Brigade, an informal
group of Indira Gandhi followers. It was a brain child of MD Nataraj, son in
law of then Karnataka CM and Congress leader
Devaraj Urs. In the present day, I would say, it’s not as blatant as it
was in those days.
RYAN: So, you reveal aspects of a very interesting case, where there was
a murder and Jayraj who was a don, actually took the police to task and a lot
of senior police officials went to prison for that. And that was him signing
his own death warrant. The cops had had enough. So, revealing all these stories
about the way things are done in Bangalore, what would you personally say that
that says about society as a whole – where your readership and all of us sit
over here and read this book avidly? But we are part of this same drama. What statement
does that make about Bangalore’s society?
JYOTI: Let me tell you a little bit about what he’s referring. M. P.
Jayraj was a well-known don who was also an anti-establishment guy, a very
unique character. You know, having a man who’s in the Underworld, but who takes
on the police and the government. He runs a tabloid-ish newspaper called Garibi Hatavo, where he would take on
all the cops: cops demanding money, demanding bribes and things like that. So
those were his exposes. (Asking Ryan) There was a murder. You were referring to the lawyer’s
death...?
RYAN: .... Yes, yes. The Vishveshwariya’s Trust and so on and so forth.
JYOTI: A lawyer was found dead on
the tracks of Salem. And the investigation turned out in a way that the police were
said to be allegedly involved. It was termed as a custodial death. Jayraj
thought it was the right case to go against the cops and he went on writing
about the case and anti-police stories in Garibi Hatavo, while he was in jail.
So, eventually, the cops didn’t know what to do. They actually had to go and
have a word with Jayraj and see how things could be worked out. So, that’s the kind
of clout that we’re talking about. What does it suggest? I think it just
suggests the close nexus between the cops, the lawyers, the Underworld, which
still runs.
RYAN: So, this next question, once again, I would like to open it out to
all of you. A lot of people talk about the nexus between politicians and
gangsters. But very few people talk about the nexus between journalists and
gangsters. You all are both parts of this world in a very deep way. So, could
you tell us something about these relationships between journalists and
gangsters, or if you will, the portrayal of their stories in a certain way?
JYOTI: (Turning to Hussain) He’s
seen more than me, so maybe he should answer.
HUSSAIN: Would Zack like to start on this?
ZACK: You see guys, I’m a novelist and I have very few relationships with
gangsters, and actually...
RYAN: Only the “literary mafia”.
(Audience
laughs).
From left to right: Zac O'yeah, Ryan Lobo, Husain Zaidi, Jyoti Shelar
Photo: courtesy Christina Daniels
ZACK: Yes, the literary mafia and of course, my only experience with the
actual goondas in the Majestic area
of Bangalore was one day when I came to Bangalore for the first time around 25
years ago and I was a young back-packing tourist in those days, and I had just
changed some couple of hundred dollars and I had some Rs. 10,000 in my pocket.
And these Bangalore gangsters – seven, eight very scary-looking guys, surrounded
me on the road in Majestic. I kind of knew I was going to be robbed and sadly,
I had changed so much money and my whole travel budget was in my pocket. They
looked at me with very piercing eyes and one of them said, “Give us Rs 20!” (Audience laughs). And my reaction was
like, I started laughing and these gangsters got very confused, because they didn’t
know what to do – a crazy, white man laughing at their attempt to rob me. And
so I started walking off because I realised this was my chance to walk away
with my Rs 10,000. And the only thing they did was to shout out to me, “Hello!
Come back, we are trying to rob you.” (Audience
laughs). My experience with gangsters was much more limited than, I think,
yours was. And I often feel worried about this whole idea when I write my own
novels, like, “What am I doing? Am I promoting these people in crime? Am I
promoting an interest in becoming an Underworld person?” And this is a very
important philosophical question. I would really like to hear Hussain’s take on
this, because you’ve working so many years and you are like, an icon among us
writers.
Jayaraj ran a newspaper called "Ghareebi Hatao" which mostly targeted Janata Dal politicians and police. Jayaraj was made president of the "Indira Brigade" – the youth wing of the Congress party and ruled the Bangalore mafia throughout the 1970s under the patronage of M. D. Nataraj, the son-in law of the Chief Minister Devaraj Urs. Jayaraj was sentenced to 10 years in jail for assaulting Thigallarapete Gopi in the local court premises. While he was in jail Devaraj Urs died and when he came out Bangalore had been taken over by the new dons Kotwal Ramachandra and Oil Kumar. In the ensuing struggle Kotwal Ramachandra was bumped off by Jayaraj with the actual murder being committed by Agni Shridhar, Varadharaja Nayak and Bacchan. Although he survived several attempts on his life, he was eventually shot dead by Muthappa Rai, in a plot allegedly conducted by the police themselves.
Jayaraj ran a newspaper called "Ghareebi Hatao" which mostly targeted Janata Dal politicians and police. Jayaraj was made president of the "Indira Brigade" – the youth wing of the Congress party and ruled the Bangalore mafia throughout the 1970s under the patronage of M. D. Nataraj, the son-in law of the Chief Minister Devaraj Urs. Jayaraj was sentenced to 10 years in jail for assaulting Thigallarapete Gopi in the local court premises. While he was in jail Devaraj Urs died and when he came out Bangalore had been taken over by the new dons Kotwal Ramachandra and Oil Kumar. In the ensuing struggle Kotwal Ramachandra was bumped off by Jayaraj with the actual murder being committed by Agni Shridhar, Varadharaja Nayak and Bacchan. Although he survived several attempts on his life, he was eventually shot dead by Muthappa Rai, in a plot allegedly conducted by the police themselves.
HUSSAIN: Well, that is an exaggeration, but I would go back again to years 1995-96,
when I was a, totally, new crime journalist. I was very adventurous in those
days. I was quite brave. These days I am not. I decided to barge into Dagadi Chawl, the fortress of Arun
Gawli’s gang and interview “Daddy”. He’s called “Daddy” there. So, I managed to
track down one person – Raju Phillips. He was a shooter. So, I spoke to him and
I interviewed him and when I was leaving, he gave me Rs. 5,000. I said, “What
is this for?” He said, “This is your “typing charges””. (Panel and audience laughs). I said, puzzled, “Typing
charges?”“- Haan, tum log typing karange?”
I said, “No, we work on the computer. There is no typing anymore.” He said,
“Nahi, lekan, ham sabko dete hai.” I
said, “But I don’t want it. I’m getting a salary from my office.” He was
insisting that I should keep the money. So, the moral of the story is – he must
have known a lot of crime journalists who must be accepting “typing charges”
from him and these guys are trying to plant positive stories about them. In
Mumbai, you will see a lot of people who will cater to these kind of mafia
people and write positive stories for some remuneration. There was this guy
Iqbal Nadiq. I don’t if you must have heard his name. Iqbal Nadiq was a crime
journalist, who actually built the persona of Dawood Ibrahim through his
newspaper called Raazdaar, which
means “confidante”. It was Iqbal Nadiq who had once walked into Dongri Police
Station and when Senior Police Inspector Ranvir Digha said, “I am too upset
about these Pathans. They are so lawless and reckless people in what they do”,
Iqbal replied, “Sholay! Follow the
formula of the film Sholay!” Ranvir
Digha was very upset. What is this nonsense? He said, “How Thakur Baldev Singh
in Sholay got two guys Jai and Viru
to finish off Gabbar Singh, you can take help from Dawood and his brother Sawid
to finish off Pathans. And that’s how Iqbal Nadiq started writing positive
stories about Dawood, portraying him as a sort of a Robin Hood. And this became
Dawood’s life image and later on in life. Similarly, Karim Lala launched in
film called Bombay Eye and he was
trying to make him out to be a Good Samaritan. Haji Mastaan, who was the
biggest, I mean, the stingiest man I’ve ever known projected the persona of a
very generous, magnanimous helping don – Firaan Robi’s type – only to the
newspaper Aqbar-E-Aalam, of which the
editor Salim Zaid himself told me, “I made Haji Mastaan equivalent of Hadim
Tai, a mythological character”. So, my whole point is that they use the media
to further their interests and make their larger-than-life image in society.
Ram Gopal Varma has released the film "Rai" about the life and times of Muthappa Rai, a 'former' don in Bangalore.
RYAN: So, to add to this, this projection of persona. Gangster want a
certain persona projected, publications want a certain persona to be projected.
So, in that regard, for example, some very fascinating points you brought up in
your book – Jayraj was the President of
the Small and Medium Newspapers Association and the Lankest Patrike – I mean, the recently murdered Kavita Lankesh’s
father’s newspaper - that publication did a lot of stories about the Underworld
and it was even used by Agni Sridhar to meet Kotwal and plan his eventual
murder. So this history of this publication, and I’m coming to a very direct
question now, given your investigations lately – does it caste any light on the
recent murder of Kavita Lankesh?
AUDIENCE: (Audience corrects Ryan) Gauri Lankesh!
RYAN: ... Sorry, I’m so sorry. Gauri Lankesh. I’m mixing her up with the
film-maker Kavita Lankesh, whom I just saw actually.
JYOTI: No. There is no direct relation between the murder and the kind of
Underworld-related stories that the paper had published. There is no direct
relation. But Gauri did know a lot about Agni Sridhar and Muthappa Rai. I
happened to go and meet Gauri several times in the initial days when I started
researching the book. She did help me a lot with contacts and some perspective
of the early days when Agni Sridhar was, you know, trying his hand at
everything, He was a law student. He was trying acting. He wanted to become a
film-maker. He used to work with Gauri’s father P. Lankesh. She gave me a
little bit about that background and how Muthappa Rai came into the picture. She
helped me with that perspective, but there is no direct connect.
Gauri Lankesh was an Indian journalist/ activist from
Bangalore, Karnataka. She worked as an editor in Lankesh Patrike, a
Kannada weekly started by her father P. Lankesh, and ran her own weekly
called Gauri Lankesh Patrike. She was murdered by unknown assailants outside her home in Bangalore on September 5, 2017. The killers are yet to be found.
RYAN: So, in the process of doing research for today’s discussion, I
noticed that Agni Sridhar, the so called reformed don had recently said that Gauri had written a negative article
about Muthappa Rai and that might have led to her – very recently actually – to
her murder by these sleeper cells or so on and so forth. So forgive me for
digressing, but I thought that was an interesting point that you brought up regarding
the relationship of certain members of the Underworld with these publications.
Agni Sridahar, a 'reformed' don and 'social worker' in Bangalore, reads his own book.
My next question is, when it comes again, to persona – everyone wants to be shown a certain way. So, at the end of your book when you go to meet Mr, Muthappa Rai, his aide says, “You know, it’s very important that he be portrayed a certain way.” And I’m sure when you meet all these characters, there’s a certain larger-than-life image which they want to project. So, this need for respectability – it’s an old story, which is that the Rockefellers were gangster barons one day and three generations down, you have to earn that respectability. You become a philanthropist, or in Bangalore, you might become a social worker. So, can you tell us something about the pressure people might put on you to be projected a certain way.
Muthappa Rai - according to Wikipedia.
JYOTI: There is a lot of pressure when it comes to the Bangalore Mafia
because, you know, the people who are alive now, they’ve gone legit. They are
now White Collar people. They really, really care about their image a lot. There
was a lot of pressure from Muthappa Rai because, you know, he has a movie
coming out, and he has that personality he maintains. But, as a journalist,
what I maintained is the writing part - the treatment of the book - was very
journalistic. After being a reporter for about 12 years, you know how to write,
how to give out a story without taking sides. So, you just put it as it is. If you’ve
read the Muthappa Rai interview, I have narrated the interview in such a way
that if you will get an update on how he is trying to push his image-building
through my interview. I’ve narrated it as the things happened. Deliberately,
there was no attempt of me making him a hero. That’s the journalistic approach
that I have taken. And, I think, that’s the best way to go. In fact, Hussain
and I have had a lot of discussions over this.
Kotwal Ramachandra (left) was one of the underworld dons of Bangalore in the 1970s and 1980s. He covered Bengaluru North and operated from Kodandarampura/ Srirampura areas. He was a contemporary of his rival M.P.Jayaraj.Agni Shridhar (right) is a 'former gangster, writer, critic and artist'. He founded Karunada Sene. He founded a weekly Kannada newspaper, Agni. He, along with other gangsters, murdered Kotwal as he slept.
ZACK: Can I just ask a question about this?
RYAN: Yes please, go ahead.
ZACK: One thing I want to ask you both. I have a journalist friend who
went and met one of these dons whose name you mentioned while you were talking,
and he went to get an interview and they were bonding quite a lot, to the
extent that the don took out his gun and allowed her to fire a few shots in his
garden. So, like that, when you meet these mafia persons, how much bonding do
you make with them, in order to get them to open up and give you the
information? And like, what sort of ways, what are they ways you build up a
friendship? Obviously, you can’t become friends with them because you have to
report on them. And on the other hand, you have to gain a certain trust. So
what do you do, I mean, do you share guns with them? (Audience laughs). Do you know what I mean?
JYOTI: Yes. Uh...
RYAN: I think what Zack is saying is – what’s your process...
ZACK: ... for getting the story?
JYOTI: I didn’t get to shoot from any gun (laughs). But I had to do a lot of rapport-building. I think,
mainly – because I’ve not covered crime in Bangalore – so, I think most of
these people – if it was a reporter from Bangalore, they would have known that
person. They would have known the name. I was a new person approaching them, so
the rapport-building took a lot of time. Luckily, you know, Hussain Zaidi’s brand
works. They knew that there’s something serious that’s happening. They didn’t
treat me as some journalist coming from some other city and who’s trying to
interact with them. They knew that there was a serious project happening and
that’s the reason it became more difficult, because they were not sure how much
they wanted to share. I met them multiple times and gradually convinced them. I
would say there was no apparent friendship, but, we kind of gradually – after
multiple meetings – now, we are comfortable. Like now, if Muthappa Rai, if I
have to meet him I...
ZACK: (Quipping) Are you Face
Book friends? (Audience laughs)
JYOTI: No, no. I’m Face Book friends with Agni Sridhar. With Muthappa Rai,
I am not.
RYAN: (Turning to Hussain). So,
would you like to add to this? This whole process of meeting? What’s the deal?
HUSSAIN: I think, being a girl, it was easier for Jyoti to strike up
friendships with these people because she’s so good-looking – A – and B, she’s
so harmless. With a guy it’s really very complex and very dangerous because in
Mumbai, you are always perceived as kissi-na-kissi
gang ka aadmi. So when I’m talking to Chhota Rajan on the phone, he might
think I’m ferreting out information for Dawood. If I’m talking to Chhota
Shakeel, he’s trying to think in his head that I’ve changed sides and I’m
trying to get information for someone else. If I’m talking to Gawli, he might
thing I’m trying to snoop for the Mumbai Police. And if I’m talking to the
Mumbai Police, they might think I’m representing the gangsters. See, all these
guys have so much cob-webs in their heads that they are not very free when
you’re talking to them. So you have to break those barriers. You have to win
their trust. And you have to really convince them that I am totally
independent. I am not working for any gang but my own ‘Zaidi’ gang. So, this is
what you do when you keep talking to them.
The basic funda is that you don’t wine and dine with them. You don’t have to
get so close. You have to maintain a distance, a safe distance. And secondly,
what you should do is, you have to tell them, “I only want stories. I don’t
need any favours from you and I don’t need any help. I am here to talk about
stories. If you call me at 6 am in the morning, I will come, which is very
difficult for me, I will admit. And if you want me to come at 3 am in the
night, which is very easy for me, I will come for that.” So, they know that
this man only wants stories and nothing else and this is the biggest factor
which cemented our bond with them.
Husain Zaidi
ZACK: All journalists are not drawing that line that you are doing.
HUSSAIN: Well, there are repercussions.
RYAN: So, I think in some regards what you’re trying to say is –
gangsters respect integrity.
HUSSAIN: Yes, they do.
RYAN: And there is honour among all kinds of thieves… and journalists.
HUSSAIN: And they always try to cross-check me. They try to find out where
my loyalties lie and when they found that I am totally free and independent of
everyone else, then they start sharing stuff with me.
RYAN: So, another aspect of the book that I liked was that you also draw
upon stories of heroic police personnel. There’s Kempaiah. There’s Ashok Kumar.
I mean, these are all men who fought against overwhelming odds, both from
within the Police Department from with dealing with hardened criminals and they
still triumphed. And not just once, but repeatedly, you know. These are guys
who, whatever the flaws in their modus operandi, they still charged that
windmill, if you will. So, can you tell me something about interacting with
police personnel and what you learned from them?
JYOTI: The cops’ stories were exciting, equally exciting. Also, it was a
good way to break away into something new. When you’re narrating something
constantly, it’s a nice way to tell something that is happening parallel. Like
you mentioned Ashok Kumar. He had this interesting story to talk about, you
know, about how Bangalore once had seven chain-snatching incidents and two men
on a motorcycle were snatching chains. And it was really very new at that time.
Now, if you talk about chain-snatching, it’s something that is really, really
common. But, at that time it was a big deal and you know, the entire police
department got together and they were brainstorming on what to do about it. And
then, here was this traffic policeman who decided that he’s going to be the one
who will catch those chain-snatchers. They named it Operation Tiger. It was kind of fascinating that such incidents of
chain-snatching took place and to build an operation around it and call it Operation Tiger. The cops’ stories added
value to the entire crime story in Bengaluru and so that it is the reason I
thought, you know, I should focus a little more on their men. It shouldn’t only
be about the Bhais from Bengaluru.
RYAN: Were there any points in both your careers – and Zack, in yours too
– where you were afraid for your life and can you tell us something about that?
Were there points where you sincerely felt insecure or in danger?
JYOTI: Me? No, I wouldn’t say that. Even while working on this book,
luckily. There were a few moments when I was uncomfortable. For example, when I
went to meet Muthappa Rai for the first time, I was waiting at the ground floor
of his building and there were several of his body-guards and they were passing
calls on the wireless and I was just supposed to go and meet him. That was the
first meeting with him. And you kind of imagine what kind of character, what
kind of person he will be after reading and after knowing so many stories about
him. It made me a little nervous, but the meeting went well.
There was another meeting with a don named Tanveer – he’s also one of the ‘legit’ guys now. Tanveer’s meeting was really fascinating. I was standing in a corner of Shivajinagar and a lot of motorcyclists came at first and met me and asked me several questions – “Kiska book hai, kya hai, kya information chahiye?” And then they made me wait there. After a while, another set of motorcyclists came to me and said, “OK, now you can go and meet him”. It turns out that Tanveer was also very cautious about who is going and meeting him and what kind of things are going out about him. So, these are just initial meetings. They made me a bit nervous, but after I met them for the second, third and more number of times, it all fell in place.
There was another meeting with a don named Tanveer – he’s also one of the ‘legit’ guys now. Tanveer’s meeting was really fascinating. I was standing in a corner of Shivajinagar and a lot of motorcyclists came at first and met me and asked me several questions – “Kiska book hai, kya hai, kya information chahiye?” And then they made me wait there. After a while, another set of motorcyclists came to me and said, “OK, now you can go and meet him”. It turns out that Tanveer was also very cautious about who is going and meeting him and what kind of things are going out about him. So, these are just initial meetings. They made me a bit nervous, but after I met them for the second, third and more number of times, it all fell in place.
Tanveer Ahmed being arrested.
ZACK: I think for me, as a fiction writer, the scariest moments are
really when I think about what I’ve written and I ask myself – where did these
perverse ideas come from? (Audience
laughs). But actually where physical danger is concerned, one also has that
as a celebrity. Like, last week, I was at the Jaipur Literary Festival in
Rajasthan and there all these parties with all kinds of strange people coming
there. And some people started chatting with me late at night at these parties
and one of them introduced himself as a pehelwan,
in fact. And only after reading Jyoti’s book, I realized that pehelwans also can be gangsters. So, I
was chatting happily with him about wrestling and all and then suddenly another
big guy turned up – who was more than 2 metres tall and 2 meters wide – and was
sort of his body-guard type. And we were sort of enjoying ourselves and talking
to each other and the other guests at the party started vanishing. And
suddenly, one person who was minding me, came up and said, “Zack, you know,
it’s better we hop into a taxi because these people are planning to kidnap you,
probably!”. And that is what happens
to someone who is a super-famous writer like me. But, you get used to it.
RYAN: So, on that fine note, I urge everyone to buy this book – The Bhais of Bangalore – because not only
does it talk to us about the history of Bangalore’s gangsters and dons and
politics thereof, it’s also a window into the soul of this city which few other
stories might be able to reveal. So, do buy the book. And I’d like to open up
this session to questions which you can direct at any one of the panelists.
Yes, ma’am? Is there somebody to take a mic around?
AUDIENCE
MEMBER # 1: Hi! Good Afternoon. I heard recently...
(Incoherent babbling)
RYAN: Ma’am, sorry, you have to speak up a little bit.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER # 1: I heard recently that most of the
states in India are run with the help of goons, these Underworld people. It’s
like, we feel so odd when we come to know that these politicians are ruling us
with the help of dons. It’s very unfortunate and very difficult to even imagine
that we are ruled by people who are hand-in-glove with them. How far is it true
and can you elaborate on this?
HUSSAIN: I think it’s quite a sweeping statement, but I will not discount it
entirely because in Maharashtra, we know a lot of politicians who became big
only because they had help from the Mumbai Underworld and there were some
politicians who did not even shy away, for example Bal Thackeray – in an open
Dusshera Rally, he referred to Arun Gawli and Amar Naik as “Aamchi Mule” – “Our Boys” versus Dawood Ibrahim, who was
considered to be an adversary or an enemy. And we know of certain names – I
mean, I would not like to mention them here, where after the JJ Shootout, two
of the shooters – Baba Gabriel and Bachi Pandey – who were called ‘B Square’,
were found on the plane of the then-Defence Minister.
So, there are politicians and their
nexus with gangsters are very deep and sometimes, beyond understanding. But to
say that all the states are ruled by the Underworld and politicians, I think,
that would be too generic and a sweeping statement.
The Mumbai High Court allows underworld don Arun Gawli to walk out of Nagpur Jail to attend his son’s wedding on 9th May 2015.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #2: Sir, Good Afternoon! I think this
question is directed at all of you. Are you, in your body of work, in a way, romanticizing the crimes of your characters. I have a few examples – basically,
Zack, I have read all your books...
ZACK: ...Thank you very much! (Audience
laughs).
AUDIENCE MEMBER #2: ... I am half way through Tropical Detective and I know you kind
of foreshadowed the story in Bangalore
Graphic Novel ... (incoherent
babbling).
RYAN: I think your question is: are you glamorizing the lives of these
criminals?
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #2: Unintentionally, are you romanticizing
them? Because Zack’s work is fiction, but the other two... I have not come
around to the Bhais of Bangalore, but
being biographical accounts, are they unintentionally glamorizing these thugs?
Thank you.
HUSSAIN: See, I don’t think I’m glamorizing them because if that was the
case because whoever has read Dogri to Dubhai, they would understand how
Machiavellian, how devilish and how villainous Dawood Ibrahim would be, and for
showing that you don’t have to use expletives.
For understanding a man, you have to see the evolution of the man from
childhood. When the police officer wanted his help to finish of pathans, he actually started using the
police. And we all know how he used the police to kill his enemies in
encounters. So, where’s the glamorisation here? I am talking about a shrewd,
cunning, manipulative gangster here, who will go to any length and any extent
to do that. For example, at Jacob Circle thing, he got a very young man to
barge into the lock-up and kill his enemies. It only shows that the man was
trying to use people are puppets. whether it is a gangster or
a cop or whether it is a politician it’s the same. So, I don’t think there is romanticization or glamorization of cops. Maybe, what has happened is you have
read my book and at the same time, also seen some Ram Gopal Verma movies (Audience laughs) and there is some
mixture here happening...
RYAN: (Laughs)
AUDIENCE
#3: (Incoherent
babbling)
RYAN: Can’t hear a word you’re saying.
AUDIENCE
#3: I used to stay in Byculla at one point of time
and apparently Arun Gawli’s coterie had come around there and they were
contesting elections and asking for votes, so that tweaked my fantasies about him. And glamorizing…
ZACK: I think this is a very relevant question and as a novelist I am
constantly thinking about that. Is it a problem that I write these books? But
one thing is that when you write fiction, even if it is crime fiction, you
know, even detective novels are very great tool for social investigation. In a
detective novel, as you may be aware, in the beginning there is a murder and in
the end there is a solution and in between the detective can do like a journey
through society and explore it in many ways. So, that is the kind of work that
is done. And in the case of my characters – he’s a person that comes from the
bottom-end of the Underworld, but he’s trying to reform himself and so, it is a
process where I’m trying to explore the possibilities how he can reform into a
human. So, I don’t think I’m glamorizing it, but it’s a constant worry that
these people will start to think that “Oh, I should also become part of the
Underworld.”
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #4: (Incoherent
babbling)
RYAN: Yes, sir! Go ahead. Can you hold the mic closer.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #4: In your experience, Mr. Zaida, what are
the traits or patterns that you would have diagnosed, which makes a gangster
more popular and successful.
HUSSAIN: Gangsters popular? I don’t think we can write these two sentences
together. They are not popular. They are very unpopular people, and only
certain people look up to them. For example, a section of boys in Dongri, they
try to look up to Dawood as a role model and as a hero, which is a very
misconceived notion about a gangster. So, I don’t think they are popular. They
should not be thought of in that way at all.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #5: Sir, after you wrote your mafia stories
over the past few years, how did you transfer from storytelling about crime to
terrorism?
HUSSAIN: See, there is a very thin line between the mafia and terrorists.
The Mafia try to say that they are doing it for their gangs and terrorists say
that they are doing it for their religion. So, where’s the difference. Mafia
perpetrate violence and terrorists cause bloodshed. While the Mafia think that
killing someone is very important for their survival, terrorists feel that
violence and killing people is very important for their religion. You know, a
gangster will kill to please his boss. A terrorist will kill to please God.
So, I’m saying the line is very thin and
both of them have these very dangerous perceptions that whatever they are doing
is allowed, it’s kosher, which is what makes them similar. What differentiates
between them is just that one has religion and the other gang ideology.
Otherwise, they are one and the same. There’s no difference between them.
Muthappa Rai poses between two of his luxury cars.One Black and one white.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #6: Hi, sir! I am Ahmed Shah and my question
is to Hussain sir. Sir, gangsters like Dawood Ibrahim and Chhota Rajan, they
are away from regular contact, but gangsters like Arun Gawli and Abu Salem whom
you have interviewed, I mean, do they get miffed when you bring up their past.
Sure, they give you veiled threats and say things like, “You better not go
there”. Because, you mentioned in your book when you met Abu Salem, he has his
own story to tell which he could offer to film-makers, which obviously hasn’t
happened yet. So, what are your thoughts on that? Do they give you threats as
such?
HUSSAIN: They do. And they get very miffed. And they don’t just give veiled
threats. They give very open and clear threats. And I have faced these types so
many times that like now, I’ve stopped bothering about them. I mean, one time,
Shakeel threatened me because in Mafia
Queens, I wrote about a woman and I said that she was Shakeel’s girlfriend,
so, he got very upset about that part. So, he said, “Because we are so far off,
I can’t cause any harm to you, but you should desist from writing such things.”
So, I just thought I’d play one smart game with him. I went to Pakistan for
some work and after doing some research in Pakistan, I called up Chhota
Shakeel’s number and I said, “Now, I am in Karachi. I’m sitting at this
MacDonald’s right opposite the Karachi Airport. You can send your people. Now,
there’s no geographical barrier. You can get me killed. I’ll be here for three
hours if you want.” Chhota Shakeel said, “Who said I’m in Karachi? I’m in
Dubai. I’m in Europe. I’m not in Karachi anymore. So, I won’t kill you here.” (Audience laughs)
RYAN: Yes, go ahead.
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #7: After spending two-three days covering
this kind of thing, are you able to keep the faith that Good will triumph over
Evil? Are you able to hold onto that?
HUSSAIN: Goodwill? with gangsters?
AUDIENCE
MEMBER #7: No, no, no. Good will triumph over Evil?
Are you able to keep that trust?
HUSSAIN: No, I think it’s only in movies that good triumphs over evil. In
reality evil usually triumphs over good.
RYAN: (To Zaidi) I have a
question, which is this aspect of being a brave person, a brave person with
integrity– because you have to be brave when you do these stories – one
after another, after another, after
another, so where does that motivation
come from if I may ask?
HUSSAIN: You want to ask her?
RYAN: Not now, Mr. Zaidi, please don’t evade the question.
(audience
laughs)
HUSSAIN: See, I told you I came to crime by sheer accident and I was forced
into crime journalism – A – and once you become a crime journalist, you realize
you have to keep doing the stories and that there is no going back here. Now,
one good thing that happened in my life was that Mr. Vikram Chandra who wrote Sacred Games - I’m sure you all know him – after helping him with his book Sacred Games, he said why don’t I write
a book? And I was only three years in journalism at that time. I could not
imagine writing a book. He introduced me to Mr. David Davidar and that’s how
the journey with Black Friday
started. Now, when I was doing Black
Friday, I was also thinking as a journalist, that it’s a great thing to
write a story that others have not written. So, then I thought, there is no
biography of dons, so that’s how it happened that I wrote Dongri to Dubai. While
writing Dongri to Dubai, I thought –
nobody has known the size of women criminals. There are so many of them. So
powerful, dangerous, interesting, intriguing. So, it happened – Mafia Queens of Mumbai. Now, I don’t
know whether to say it was good luck or bad luck – some film-makers got
interested in my stories and they started paying me an obscene amount of money
to write those books and start buying those books’ stories which was one
motivation, which did not stop me from doing it anyway though.
(Audience
laughs).
RYAN: Cheers! Any more questions? OK, I think we can wrap this up. Thank
you very much and thank all of you! You can all buy the book. It’s excellent and available in the Book Center. Thanks.
ORGANIZER: I would like to thank you all for this wonderful, riveting session.
It was truly awesome.
HUSSAIN: Thank you! (talking to Ryan)
Are these flowers on the table real?
RYAN: No! (Both laugh)
THE END
Many thanks to Mrs. Jayapriya Vasudevan, Mrs. Parizad Berlin, Mr. Husain Zaidi, Mr. Zac O'Yeah and Ms. Jyoti Shelar for making this happen.
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